Learn about one woman's passage into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America. Author Diana Helmuth is releasing her second book, The Witching Year: A Memoir of Earnest Fumbling Through Modern Witchcraft in October 2023. In this author interview, we have an unreserved conversation about the year she spent journeying into modern witchcraft practices. She offers a heartfelt discussion on the successes and failures, the ins and outs that her upcoming memoir details.
Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project
International Alliance to End Witch Hunts
Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa
Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria
Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis
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Learn about one woman's passage into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America. Author Diana Helmuth is releasing her second book, The Witching Year: A Memoir of Earnest Fumbling Through Modern Witchcraft in October 2023. In this author interview, we have an unreserved conversation about the year she spent journeying into modern witchcraft practices. She offers a heartfelt discussion on the successes and failures, the ins and outs that her upcoming memoir details.
Witches of Islandmagee Commemoration Project
International Alliance to End Witch Hunts
Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa
Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria
Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis
Support Us! Sign up as a Super Listener!
Thou Shalt Not Suffer Podcast Book Store
Support Us! Buy Witch Trial Merch!
Support Us! Buy Podcast Merch!
Join us on Discord to share your ideas and feedback.
Hi, and welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
Sarah Jack:I'm Sarah Jack.
Josh Hutchinson:We're eager to bring you this interview with Diana Helmuth, author of The Witching Year: a Memoir of Earnest Fumbling through Modern Witchcraft.
Sarah Jack:Today you will learn about one woman's journey, Diana's, into witchcraft, the fastest growing self directed faith in America.
Josh Hutchinson:Diana spent 366 days learning how to practice the modern craft.
Sarah Jack:The Witching Year is an honest trip through her successes and failures as she learned the ins and outs. Here's Diana Helmuth. She studied cultural anthropology at UC Berkeley and American University in Cairo. She is a nonfiction author, freelance writer, Silicon Valley startup veteran, hiker, producer, and cupcake baker. Her first book is How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking. And her new book, The Witching Year, is available to pre order now.
Josh Hutchinson:We begin with a reading from The Witching Year by author Diana Helmuth.
Diana Helmuth:In the spirit of better planning, I am trying to come up with a list of what I'm now referring to as significant pagan locations where I can spend Lammas. I don't want to be locked in my office with a cardboard box again, and unfortunately pagan sanctuaries continue to elude me. I've already emailed five in California and received no response.(I'm assuming they are ignoring me because of COVID, but that might also be me just trying to protect my ego.) I text both Emma and Lauren about this problem, asking their advice. Lauren replies,"have you thought about going to Salem?" And this gets me excited, because I have been waiting for an opportunity to spring into my speech."Salem?" I reply."But those women weren't even witches. In fact, they were insisting they were Christian the whole time they were being indicted. Isn't it pretty ironic to build a witchy homeland on their legacy? By doing so, aren't we committing the same offense as their captors and denying the wishes of the falsely accused? How did Salem become a place where actual witches connect?""You have given this some thought," she replies. I have. Salem is the home of witchcraft because witchcraft in the modern zeitgeist is a community of weirdos bonding about abandoning Christianity. She taps back,"there is no homeland. So we made one. It was easy to put it there.""But isn't the place where Christian women insisted they weren't witches and got burned anyway for being witches a pretty dumb place for a witchy homeland?" I retort."Nobody actually got burned in Salem, she replies. They were hung. As for Europe, women were burned for witchcraft whether or not they were witches, and most weren't. They just owned land or were Romani or just happened to be someone's least favorite washerwoman. But those women became symbols for the persecution of women, and witchcraft is about reclaiming female power, so you end up back at square one." I grumble. I can't plan a trip to Salem on this short notice, but I wonder about Samhain, the witch's new year, also known as Halloween. I switch over to Emma, who lives in New England, and ask her what Salem is like in October."Hell," she replies."You do not want to come here on Halloween. It is goth Outside Lands. There's trash everywhere. You can barely get through the crowds. I thought I was going to have a panic attack just walking around.""I see," I reply, a bit disappointed."But as for a Wiccan sacred place," you know,"you've already been going there, her text bubble reads. It's nature. I don't know if you're aware of this, but your favorite hobby has been, for some time, pretty damn witchy." She's right. I know she's right. A deep connection with the earth is one of the few things that witches seem to universally agree is important. At the same time, I know a lot of witches I would lovingly describe as"indoor cats"-- tarot-throwing, tea-sipping, pentacle-wearing cat moms without so much as a potted mint on their windowsill. They have their kinks, but putting everything in a bag and getting spanked by nature for three days isn't one of them."Hiking and backpacking isn't sacred for every witch," I tap back."No," she replies,"but that's the great part about witchcraft. Everyone connects with nature in their own way. You get to make it your own. It's pretty obvious you've felt pulled by nature for a long time. So just keep going." I briefly consider telling her about my failed experiment with the oregano and then change my mind. Backpacking, while being a favorite hobby, might also help with meditation. Roderick encourages people who have trouble meditating in stillness to try slow, mindful walking. What's more, walking doesn't hurt my back. It's stillness that is causing me issues. When I'm moving, nothing hurts. I began prepping for my first pilgrimage.
Sarah Jack:Thank you.
Josh Hutchinson:You've published two books now, right?
Diana Helmuth:Yes, the first one was called How to Suffer Outside: A Beginner's Guide to Hiking and Backpacking, which was a kind of a tongue in cheek approach. I like to think of it as a permission slip that I, someone had written for me when I was younger and figuring out backpacking for myself. The idea was allowing people to feel like even if they feel incorrect or like they're doing something wrong, or that someone is going to make fun of them, that they still deserve to go into nature, they can still engage with this hobby, perfection is an illusion, and the whole thing is pretty goofy and painful in the first place, so just lean into it and fall down a lot, and it's fine. You still belong, you still deserve to do this, which sort of was the energy we took into The Witching Year, even though The Witching Year is not, it's not a how to. It is not prescriptive. It's just a memoir of me falling down a lot, trying to become a witch.
Josh Hutchinson:What was occupying your time before you started writing?
Diana Helmuth:I was, like most writers, like most artists, I think you do your art as often as you can while you're doing the other things that make you money or make you feel like a responsible human, taking care of other people and getting your bills paid. But I started to lean more into my writing while I was an operations and marketing assistant at a robotics company, Silicon Valley. I went to school. I wanted to be a diplomat. I wanted to work in the Foreign Service. I was studying Arabic. I wanted to create intercultural communication bridges between the West and the Middle East. And a long story short, that didn't end up happening. I got jaded with some of the processes there, but we don't need to have that conversation. I worked in Silicon Valley startup land. I grew up in Northern California. I graduated from college right when the startup scene was booming in San Francisco, and I got swept right up into it. And I don't have any regrets about that, actually. I learned a lot. And I got to work with some really interesting, really smart people in a very interesting and funny time in San Francisco's history.
Sarah Jack:What led you to begin your year long spiritual quest?
Diana Helmuth:When is a good time to decide you want to try and become a witch? What happens? Crisis and the desire for something interesting. I have two answers to this. The first is, I grew up in Northern California near a lot of the 1960s kind of hippie movement witchcraft started. These were the people who took Wicca, and you have Starhawk with the Goddess Movement, and you have Oberon Zell-Ravenheart working with all these neopagan groups, and all of these folks are percolating, Zsuzsanna Budapest starts Dianic Wicca, and all of this is happening in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and I'm born in the 80s. When I grew up, kids in school weren't just reading Harry Potter, they were reading Harry Potter and learning tarot and reading each other's star signs, and a lot of them were reading Silver Ravenwolf and Scott Cunningham and were saying,"I'm a Wiccan. I am a witch. And this isn't a joke to me. This is actually serious." I think I knew as many witches in high school as I knew Jewish people and actual Christians. And I think that is just very unique to where I grew up. I don't think most people in the country experience that. So I knew witches growing up, and I thought it was interesting. I went to some rituals in high school, I dabbled, but I never really felt it in my bones in a very serious way. I never engaged with it in a very serious way. Like I also went to church with some of my friends and I think sermons were interesting and I didn't think Christianity was for me for a few different reasons. I always had a pleasant time when I went to church. I get the appeal. I saw the pull of inspiration and community and love that is at the root of a lot of religions that draws people in. But why did I decide all of a sudden at 35 to start to become a witch? I had been dabbling with it for years again, and I actually had some friends, I had two friends who are characters in the book, Meg Elison and Lauren Parker, who are both witches and also authors themselves, and they've become my mentors throughout the year. And I got in an argument with Lauren one night while Meg was in the room. It was over Zoom and we were arguing about astrology and I said to her, I just got really real. And I said,"listen, astrology is bullshit. And it's bullshit because it is precisely antithetical to the goals of self empowerment that it peddles. It's like, how can you have this whole pseudoscience that is designed to get people in touch with who they are when it's entirely prescriptive and unchangeable based on when they were born? This is a crime." And she, she's,"that's not what astrology is, you're being narrow minded, it's not that scriptive, it's a path to discover the self." We were just buttheads and butting heads, and finally Meg intervened and she said,"do you know what the funniest thing in the world would be? Is if you got your chart professionally read and then tried to live it for a year and saw what happened." And then Lauren said, no, it'd be, I might have it backwards. One of them said,"you should try living astrologically for a year." And then the other one said,"no, you should just try being a witch for a year," because the astrology conversation, the fight had, was born out of me saying,"I don't think this is what the occult is about." And Lauren said,"the fuck do you know the occult is about? Do you really know?" So we were in this fight about the occult and she basically said,"what do you know?" And I said,"nothing, but here's why I think too much of it is ironic. And I think too much of it encourages you to practice the opposite of what it is preaching." And she said,"you should try living as a witch for a year, because I think this would be hilarious." And I was looking for another book idea, and I pitched it to my agent. And she said,"oh, this sounds really funny. Okay. Yeah, do it." And originally, it was supposed to be a comedy. Is not a comedy now. We were spoofing off of A. J. Jacobs' Year of Living Biblically. I'm very honest with that. I used his journey as a foil for my own, and he's quite funny in that. He's very glib. I found it harder to stay as glib as the year went on. I think parts of it are very funny. I am told parts of it are extremely funny, but it is not a comedy. It quickly became not a comedy as the year went on.
Sarah Jack:I could really relate to, I don't, wouldn't even call it sarcasm either, when you're having your experiences and you're talking, even at the beginning with just your intro, but when you're talking about the day that you're in and there's something funny about it, the way you present it is super relatable. Those moments where I think, okay, I'm either going to laugh right now or I'm going to cry. There's like some of that, like where you try to find the humor and just what could really be upsetting or frustrating. So I think you're really good at doing that.
Diana Helmuth:Thank you. Yeah I think some of this stuff is just... It is funny. It's not supposed to be funny, and that's precisely why it's hilarious. It's supposed to be very serious. This is religion. This is spirituality. We're tapping into divinity. We're invoking gods. This is intense. And then it gets so serious. It's like when someone looks you right in the eye. My mom does this to my niece all the time, especially when she's in a really cranky mood and she goes,"whatever you do, don't smile." And it's, she can't help it. She erupts and giggles. And that's started to feel every time I sat down and actually tried to be a serious witch. And then quickly it was depressing, like I'm not doing it right. Cause I'm actually trying, really trying, I'm trying to do this right. And then, eventually, not to give the book away, but I don't want people to think this book is a dunkathon on witchcraft, because it isn't. But some breakthroughs happen, and when they happen, they are actually ecstatic. And you are laughing, but you're laughing for a different reason. You're laughing because you're happy. You're laughing because you feel like you made it to the top of the mountaintop, and you never understood before, and it's, yeah, that's pretty cool. So I did want to talk about the honesty of the pitfalls of going on a spiritual journey, but there are also moments where I hope it's apparent that the rewards were savored.
Josh Hutchinson:That definitely came across with your gratitude for those moments when things went more as expected. But you write, and I like that you're very honest about your experiences and when things weren't working, you talk about how it didn't work, but you kept going. So how did you manage to keep going through all the setbacks?
Diana Helmuth:Ah, that's a great question. All completely honest, I think if I wasn't on a contract and getting paid to do this, I probably would have thrown in the towel three months earlier, which I am a creature who needs a lot of accountability. I think witchcraft is an autodidact's dream religion. You could argue if it's even a religion. Of course, a lot of people would say it's not. I'm not here to fight with them. It doesn't have to be, you don't want it to be. But for other people, it is. And I think that's fair, too. But the mentors are helpful. I think just sitting and reading your books, and this is something that happens to me throughout the year. I am alone. It is COVID. It wasn't supposed to be. We thought COVID was going to wrap up at the end of 2021. It sure didn't. So COVID basically became a character in the book. We changed the whole roadmap of what the year was going to look like. I was supposed to go to all these events. I was supposed to do all these fun things, attend these festivals, attend these conventions. Very few of them actually happened. Most of the book is me in my house reading, talking to Lauren and Meg and interviewing some folks in the community, but for the most part, I am alone, which on the one hand, I think is a bad way to learn and on the other hand, I think reflects the experience of most people who are dabbling in witchcraft now. So hopefully there is some relatability there. But near the end of the year, I also do start to, as the world opens up, I start to reconnect with other witches and just things get solved for me so quickly. I have amazing conversations with people that are so educational and productive and healing, and I would say, again, the book's not prescriptive and I'm not going to teach anyone how to be a witch, but if you were going to dabble, I think like any major undertaking, it's good to have some accountability and some voices outside of your own head. Get a group, man, get a coven.
Sarah Jack:And you really had a variety of voices in your story. I love that. The different conversations and encounters you're having and your inquiries. You're getting personal experience and opinion from the different individuals, and it feels like you're collecting, that you're in the field collecting research and looking. I really enjoyed that piece of the journey, too.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah. We initially when I turned in the first chunk, my, one of my editors said,"this reads like a dissertation. Can you? Can you chill a little?" And I was like,"I want to make it clear I did my homework." And she was like,"remember, this is entertainment. No one is giving you a PhD at the end of this." There's a long bibliography. I wanted to make it clear that I had endeavored to educate myself and present the education that was relevant and fascinating. But yeah, we did have to tone some of it down a little bit, but I'm glad that came through, some of that research came through. Really nice to hear, actually.
Sarah Jack:My tie to witchcraft is the witch trial history, because I descend from two women that hanged in Salem, Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty. And then I had another family in my tree that stood trial, but they survived.
Diana Helmuth:I think it's really interesting that you descended from these women who were accused in this whirlwind of hate, basically, and then suffered and then died. I think it's interesting that both of you were, and something that I, in the book I talk about this, but I do go to Salem, and I'm bitter the whole time I'm there, and I, even though Salem is actually a lovely town, and everyone I met there was extremely nice, and the reason that I was a little bitter about it is because I thought it was, again, I thought it was a little bit ironic that this has become the home of modern witchcraft, because all of the women there who were accused of witchcraft wouldn't have said they were witches. So I think it's a little twisted and macabre to then build this celebration of this thing that they rejected, probably until their dying breath, basically. There's something a little twisted about it. These women said they weren't witches. They were killed in a hate crime. And now we're here being like,"we're witches, yay." And we know they didn't sign up to be the symbols for this. When I bring this issue to Lauren, one of my mentors in the book, she says,"witchcraft needed a homeland and it was easy to put it there because, after 200 years, there's an evolution." So maybe in the soil of Salem, there is some kind of reclamation about how at the end of the day, you end up back at square one when you're talking about the persecution of witches and the persecution of women because the women and, the man, but the women who were largely accused and harmed on the charge of witchcraft. Even if they weren't, you're really looking at a hate crime against women, and witchcraft is a lot about the liberation of women and female empowerment. So again, you end up back at square one, which I suppose is fair. I'll give it that. It just always struck me as a little strange, but at this point, I think Salem is here to stay. I think it's only growing. I think the more people who think about neopaganism in general is a good thing. I don't think Salem should shut down tomorrow. I'm not advocating for that. I just think the building up of Salem into what it is today is a little bit of a funny story, but you know what, so is the existence of the United States. So what are you going to do?
Josh Hutchinson:I think it's beautiful the way it's come like full circle. It built up this infamous reputation because of the witch trials and had this reputation as being an intolerant place. And now it's the scene of religious tolerance, tolerating the neopagan faiths, which certainly there's been a lot of intolerance towards that, so it's good that there's like a safe haven. Yeah.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah. I like that. I really like how you phrased that. I think that's absolutely true.
Sarah Jack:I think that the people who go to Salem are seeking empowerment. There's a lot of opportunity to learn the history, too, when you're there.
Diana Helmuth:I went in the off season, it was actually quite lovely and the snow is very pretty, but everything was closed. I mean, when they say off season, they really mean off season. There was a museum we didn't even get to because they were just like, we don't open until April. I was like, Oh my bad. I came in February for Imbolc. I have heard during Halloween, it is probably depending on your personality type, a rowdy, vivacious, magnificent party or an absolute hellscape but I didn't manage to make it out there during Halloween, but it's quite pleasant in the off season if anyone ever wants to go, recommend it, actually, just make sure everything you want to see is actually open, but yeah, it was nice.
Josh Hutchinson:One of the things that I liked about your approach to the book and to your experience is that you sought information from different traditions. You didn't just say, I'm going to do Wicca by the book, or I'm going to focus on being a particular type of witch. So I thought it was very interesting that you have all these multiple perspectives coming in.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah that was the hardest part, actually, was the methodology. A. J. Jacobs has the Bible, which, granted, there's a lot of different versions, and how do you interpret? I'm not saying the Bible is like a clean path or anything, but it is a book. And witchcraft does not have an equivalent. It does not have a pope. It does not have anything that formal or hierarchical, not really. So I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? Because I simply cannot read every book and every website and listen to every podcast episode. There's just so much content in this landscape and some of it contradicts itself and some of it is very old and some of it is very new and it's hard to even know what qualifies sometimes. So I looked up all the books with Wicca in the title or the subheading were the best sellers for the past hundred years. And I bought them all or the top 10 or 15 or something. And I said,"okay, this is it. This is my canon." That was the best methodology I could actually think of. And then of course, there's been in the United States, it's a growing trend in younger witches away from Wicca. Wicca I think is starting to be seen as a little bit stuffy, a little problematic, a little doddering, even though Wicca has absolutely permeated the American witchcraft landscape and largely, I would say, of the entire West. People throw in different flavors, but it's, you can't, Wicca is everywhere. I think people are accidentally doing it all the time, even when they think they're not. Oh, did you know that practice was borrowed from Wicca? They might not even know who Gerald Gardner is, but they're like doing stuff that he recommended in a book he wrote in the 1950s. Granted, Gerald Gardner took a lot of that stuff from older traditions. I'm not saying he invented them but I think that some people get really upset with Wicca. I'm not quite sure why. It gets a little, it gets a little funny to me because I think it comes out of a fear of religion and you can't be religious or you'll be stupid. It's everybody just breathe. I'm not saying Wicca's perfect, but I think there's a lot of good in it. And I think we should acknowledge how much it has influenced modern witchcraft. But anyway, so I get to November and Meg says to me, Meg is a Gardnerian Wiccan. She tells me,"what are you doing with this reading list?" And I say,"I wanted to stick to Wicca because it had structure and I felt like I needed structure and it seemed a little more just organized and considering how much of modern witchcraft is influenced by Wicca, it just seemed like an easier path." And she was like, she just looked at me and she said,"you are keeping yourself in the dark with this reading list. Like you need to branch out now or you're kidding yourself." So I went back to the drawing board. She was right, of course. I went back to the drawing board and said, okay. So let's just focus on witchcraft. Wicca is small. Witchcraft is way bigger. Witchcraft is a spirituality. Wicca is a religion. And again, that can be debatable depending on the person. That's what I personally think. But I bought the top 10 to 15 books on witchcraft, and threw those into my cart, bought them all, and then started devouring them. And there were some interesting trends. There were some things that changed, but what's funny is most of the books that I bought, and this is why I say what I said earlier about how I think when people are practicing witchcraft and pretend it's so different from Wicca, unless they're doing something really specific like Hoodoo or Conjure or Voodoo they're, if they're doing like European defensive witchcraft, it probably has a lot of Wicca in it because if they're reading these popular books, these top books that I read, every single one of them was written by a Wiccan. I thought I was going on this whole new magical journey and really, I was just basically hanging out in Wicca. The sole exception was Juliet Diaz's book Witchery. And she's written many books since, and Juliet Diaz, of course, is a bruja. But there is even a lot of Wiccan flavor in her writing, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just there.
Josh Hutchinson:It sounds like witchcraft, broadly speaking, offers something for every personality type. If you want the structure, you can choose the structure. If you want to practice independently, you can practice independently.
Diana Helmuth:Gardnerian Wicca is very structured. It has a lot of rules. It has a lot of formality. It really follows in the tradition of someone who is seeking something, someone who is seeking religion. And by that, someone who is seeking order and community and clean paths to connect with other humans and the divine together. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. You have to be initiated. It's secretive. I don't, I wouldn't necessarily call it a closed practice. Solitary Wiccans of course exists. Scott Cunningham wrote a beautiful book about it, because he said Wicca is too beautiful for people to continue to just have it be a, this closed door thing, and you have to know someone to get you in, and he was like, fuck that, I this should belong to everybody, I refer to him as the Bernie Sanders of witchcraft, you know, because he threw open the doors and was like, everybody get in here, we're not doing this anymore, come on, this is too good. And I, I always, I will always love Scott Cunningham for that. Some of his writing is problematic. I like to think if he had lived longer, he would have gone back and corrected some things. But unfortunately, he died when he was very young, so he never got the chance. Witchcraft, on the other hand, is much more free form. Who decides if you're a witch or not? Unless you're part of some organized coven, which a lot of people are. There's so many witchcraft traditions, but a lot of people today are just eclectic, they're just picking up stuff online, things are resonating with them, and then they're following them, and I do think that's a good thing, also, because so much of modern witchcraft is essentially therapy and self empowerment in every sense of the word, and it is not just for women. There is so much here for men. Like, whenever I meet a male witch, I'm like, good on you, king, holy shit, tell the brethren please we need so much, we need so many more of you. Yes, witchcraft is about women and women's empowerment, because it's usually women who are getting persecuted, if you look at the history books. But... Oh my god, there's so much here for every gender. I really just want every guy I know to get into witchcraft so badly. I think the world would be such an amazing place if that happened. But yeah, I, witchcraft is very open, it's very freeing, there are very few rules, and subsequently I think we just fight a lot about what is correct or not, but at the same time, they're all on the same team because we all just want to feel safe and connected, and we're all fighting for the same thing. And I often talk about witches being truly the perfect example of sisterhood. You can be fighting with someone really viciously, and then 10 minutes later, like sharing Skittles with them. That, that is sisterhood, and a lot of witchcraft is like that, which I like. It's a safe place to spar ideas, knowing that you guys are ultimately on the same team as each other. I really like that about the witchcraft community and I think that's true even across traditions, like not just with European Wiccan style, but with, brujas and other sects. I really think there's this larger sense of we're all working towards the same goal. It's really beautiful.
Sarah Jack:I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about, you have such a bond and perspective with nature and our climate, and then of course witchcraft has so much nature in it. You have your own personal relationship with nature and then now this journey probably brought a new dimension.
Diana Helmuth:Trying to be a witch for a year turned me into a rabid environmentalist. And I was always very left in my politics. I believe in climate change. I want politicians to help us reduce our carbon footprint. I believe in preserving the forests that I play in. And I think nature is a good thing and should be preserved. And the more nature we have, the better the planet will be and the better we will be with it, on it. But with that said, there was something about, I think, meditating on the interconnectedness of things, just going outside and just staring at your garden for 20 minutes. Okay, you don't have a garden, maybe you live in an apartment. Okay, going outside and just like looking at the tree that's down the block from you, that boring ass tree. It like is a pathway to the universe. I know how insane that sounds. There was something that happened during the year where I got almost eco anxiety, actually, because the earth is a sacred thing in witchcraft. And I was writing about that a lot and meditating on that a lot. And I started to have anxiety around buying things in plastic containers and everything I wanted to do to help protect the environment just felt so impotent. Oh, I can vote and recycle. Oh, what? No. That's nothing. I'm the smallest of drops in a very dry bucket and we need so much more than that. Which in a way I think was a good thing. It motivated me to be more active in my political life in these efforts, but at the same time, ultimately, it was very depressing because I think when we as individuals think about things as massive as climate change, it's very difficult not to get just horrifically depressed and especially with wildfires that are going on across the West Coast every year. I mean I weep over them. I really do. I take it very personally. These forests don't bounce back super fast. People say that they do, they don't. They will, but it doesn't happen in a year or two or three or five or even 10 in many cases. Yeah, I guess being a witch increased my eco anxiety. Nature is beautiful and powerful, but also is not your friend. Nature is a process. You are a part of that process. That process is not always kind. Backpacking will teach you that very quickly. To romanticize nature is to put yourself in danger, and a lot of witchcraft does romanticize nature, but I think what I actually learned is that it doesn't mean, witchcraft doesn't mean going outside and thinking that nothing's going to hurt you and that everything is for you and talking to you. I think it's more like going outside and realizing that everything is connected and you're a part of that connection. And wow, doesn't it feel so good to be part of something so big and to feel plugged in like that? That's more what it is, I think.
Josh Hutchinson:The realization that you had during your journey when you realized hey, we're all the same atoms from the same distant stars and everything. We're made, literally made of the same stuff. So you know, that's just seemed like such a beautiful realization.
Diana Helmuth:Thank you. Yeah. I am worried a lot of my atheist friends are going to read this book and think I am insane now, but that's just the risk you take when you go on a spiritual journey. We'll just see how it shakes out. Hopefully, I'll still have friends.
Josh Hutchinson:Yeah. As one atheist here, opinion, I. I don't feel that way. I think what you did was great. And I have nothing but respect for that. And if I were to choose a religion, I think that something that valued nature would be what I would do. I'm a guy who once spent two years camping.
Diana Helmuth:Two years.
Josh Hutchinson:living among nature is. All around the country. I just drove campground to campground and I'd stay for a week or two and then go to another one. And then after a year and a half of doing that, I decided to spend the next half year doing a hike. So I started on the Pacific Crest Trail. And
Diana Helmuth:Yeah. Wow. I want to read your book about the camping. Oh my god.
Josh Hutchinson:Thank you.
Diana Helmuth:that sounds, I bet you've had some pretty intense realizations about that. Did you ever read Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey?
Josh Hutchinson:Yes.
Diana Helmuth:I'm actually in the middle of it right now, and he is articulating so much. When I was a teenager, I felt like I would go into nature and I would have these experiences that really felt like quasi spiritual and profound. I didn't want to say the birds, it's not like the birds were talking to me. I just felt like I wanted to merge my atoms into the rock and become one with the rock. And wouldn't that be the best thing that could ever happen to anybody? And it was very romantic and very strong and very intense. And I don't know, it was probably just high on puberty hormones. And I started to lose that as I got older and it honestly breaks my heart, but I'm reading Edward Abbey right now and he's articulating it. And he's this like salty old dude and I'm like, okay cool. If he can do it, I can get it back. Yes. Yes. It wasn't just puberty, man. It was real. It was real. So yeah I'm loving it so far. It's like changing my life in a really good way.
Josh Hutchinson:I had this one experience on the hike where I wasn't talking to birds, but the bees spoke to me, and I listened to them because bees tend to hang out around water sources.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson:Really, you realize that instantly thinking about bees, you think the hive and hanging from the tree and whatever, but they're down where the water is. And so they led me to water on two occasions. And
Diana Helmuth:Thanks guys.
Josh Hutchinson:I don't know, just listening to nature was very helpful for me.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah. It's connection to land is something I tried to talk about a lot in the book and very quickly back, it's tricky. If you're white, do you live in America? Tricky is a mild way of putting it. There was definitely a part of the year where I also really had to work through a lot of white guilt. And I was reading a lot. I was reading a lot of authors that were helping me process guilt and hidden racism and what it means to be an ally and what land back really means and all of these things. And not the book. And initially I turned in 160,000 word manuscript. They wanted 80,000 and they were like, buddy, we don't have the ink for this. And I was like, okay, so we cut a lot. But I do hope the sections of the book where I do write about that, they were really hard to write, because I was really afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I think there's an opportunity to do justice. And when you have that opportunity, you really don't want to fumble the ball. But ultimately, I hope some of the things I did in the book inspire other people, especially white people to like inquire a little bit internally around their own possible repressions and ancestry and complicated feelings about where I belong in the world and what my ancestors did to get me here. Obviously that's a very personal journey, but I do think the more we talk about it probably the better. Probably the better. And maybe even my own hesitance is just white fragility, but probably is still working through, but I think it's a good thing to try, because ultimately it's all for justice and justice is always a good thing at the end of the day and should feel good, not hard.
Sarah Jack:We have an interview that's coming that we just had with a professor named Owen Davies. If you haven't read his book, America Bewitched, it's really good. It's so informative. And it really plainly shows that the trials ended, but the hunting increased, it continued. We don't have the story from 300 years ago and then, Oh, how did this keep, how come this is happening over in these 60 countries right now? America got it right at some point. Maybe we got the legislation right and prosecution but it was still happening in communities, and he talks about how the mentality of witch fear within your family or within your community transferred over into, to indigenous cultures that were here. Their fear of witches was the outsider and it became the insider. And that's a tragedy.
Diana Helmuth:If anyone asks me if I'm a witch, I will say who's asking and why? Because the word witch means so many different things. It could mean a girl upstairs in her room playing with crystals and journaling about her shadow, or it could mean a woman being burned to death in Nigeria. I'm thinking about Martina Itagbor, this happened like a month ago, right? She was burned, I think, semi alive in the street because people accused her of being a witch. And the thing that drives me crazy, I have read so much about her story, is, I'm like, I don't, I don't think she was. I don't think she would have said she was. I don't think, I think she would have said she was a Christian. And then of course, there are Christian witches, there's folk Catholicism and all that jazz, so that the, sometimes that either even the same word in English drives me bonkers because here I am, this, this girl in the West Coast, like who grew up where everyone could be whoever they wanted. And I'm writing a book about being a witch, and I feel pretty safe. There are some evangelicals who are going to come for me, and I'm a little nervous about them, but I'm not like, oh god, should I knock on wood if I say I'm not worried about being burned alive. And then of course in history, it's just anyone who was practicing a religion that wasn't the colonizer's religion was a witch. Any power that was not the colonizer's power was a witch, and of course in America that was Christianity, right? Indigenous practices for witchcraft and, I don't know. I know you know. I don't need to tell you this. But that's also why I feel a little weird donning the name sometimes because I'm like, that's a lot to take on. It's a lot to compare myself to that doesn't feel entirely justified, which is why I think I feel more comfortable calling myself a neopagan because I am and I like neopaganism. I don't know if there is a more layered word in the English language. Maybe fuck. That's about it. It's witch and fuck. Those are the two most loaded words in English.
Josh Hutchinson:I think that's such a good point about how you define witch really depends a lot on your own background and perspective and understanding of what a witch is. But there's so many different versions of the witch over the thousands of years that witches have existed. I bring it down to like intentionality.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson:The intentional witch who wants to be practicing and is practicing. And then there's the like more reviled witch, that's the evil one who the actual person that's accused isn't usually practicing any magic or what they're doing is totally harmless, but they're being accused of harming somebody. It's put on people as a forced label, but then it's also available to embrace as a label, and that's, one of those is very disempowering and one is very empowering.
Diana Helmuth:And that to me is how the witch becomes the symbol of female empowerment, because in many parts of the world today and in the past, a witch is a woman who has too much power and is displeasing, right? So then you have this group of feminists who are saying that's exactly what we're going to fucking be, man, and we're going to wield our will. It's all about willpower. The connection there, it's just, then I did have a lot of moments when I was writing this book, like, wow, I'm so privileged that I can just casually talk about how I'm trying to be a witch and there are women in the world who are literally still getting murdered in the street because other people are accusing them of being witches and they're like,"bro, I'm not." I just feel like sometimes they should be different words, but I guess they're not because the root of it is misogyny.
Sarah Jack:Yeah.
Diana Helmuth:Which is the collective struggle. There's probably a scholar who can articulate this a lot better than me, but I think we're under, we're all understanding each other, we're all understanding each other.
Sarah Jack:Yeah. And our listeners can relate and they would like to jump in the conversation right now. I'm sure when they're listening to this, it's a conversation they want to have with people. So in its conversations, they can listeners, you can have these conversations. We, one of our very early episodes that we recorded. We're what's the crew that is doing the Last Witch film documentary about one of the gals that was exonerated late from the Salem Witch Trial era. And that was such an interesting conversation. But one of the themes of that conversation that came out was having the conversations, have conversations with new people, with people with different backgrounds, and go talk to them and find your connections and see the humanity in each other.
Diana Helmuth:I do love talking about this stuff. So I have, I'm on social media and stuff. If anyone wants to talk to me about this, if you are dabbling in witchcraft, I really like to hear from other people who are doing that. Because I, cause I genuinely think it's just fun to talk about this stuff. It's endless, it's boundless and it's important.
Sarah Jack:I'm excited for your book to be in hands. I think it's something that people who would embark on such a journey will enjoy, but I hope those who have someone in their life that is starting a similar journey could find encouragement and guidance in your book and not guidance in witchcraft, but guidance and understanding what a journey is like for somebody and supporting them.
Diana Helmuth:That is also my hope. That is also my hope is that's what this book could be, not so much a guide, but more like a friend. Not Gandalf, but Sam. Or something like that. Yeah.
Josh Hutchinson:It's not an instruction manual, but it's like a helping hand, a friend you can reach out to and support you while you're doing the same thing.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah. Hopefully, there's something that's relatable that will make you feel less stupid. If you ever did. Maybe you never did. But if you ever did, hopefully this book will just make you feel like it's okay.
Josh Hutchinson:The book's message is also one of just tolerance and mutual respect for each other. And you can differ about how you go about your spirituality or faith or religion, but humans are humans and we should respect each other.
Diana Helmuth:Yes. That is something I think witchcraft will teach you very quickly is about tolerance and patience with yourself and with others. And the more tolerant you become of yourself, the more tolerant you become of others. The more patient you are with yourself, the more patient you can become of others. I, again, I feel simply lucky, privileged, grateful that I grew up in an area where there was a lot of tolerance. It wasn't perfect. Definitely not for everyone, but I think compared to most parts of the world, it was extraordinarily tolerant. And that I got to just do this there without fear of literally anybody killing me because I was doing something different, hopefully tolerance will increase.
Josh Hutchinson:It was good for me, at least. I can only speak from my own experience, but reading it really answered my questions about what goes on in the practice. What's it like living that way? I just want everybody else to have that same kind of experience to realize this is an acceptable path. And I'd say for anybody who still has any reservations, maybe just from upbringing or your own religious background, if you have reservations about witchcraft, read this book and a lot of that'll be taken away. You clear up misconceptions. You talk about the value you're getting out of what you're doing. So back to that tolerance thing again.
Diana Helmuth:Yeah, it's normal. Well, depending on who you ask. Don Martin, who wrote The Dabbler's Guide to Witchcraft, I've heard him say this before on social media. He's, witchcraft really is mainstream at this point. Like it's not really what it was in the eighties and nineties. A lot of people are playing with this stuff now. It's just how deep you are in the water. And I think he's right.
Sarah Jack:And now for a Minute with Mary.
Mary Bingham:My heart breaks for men and women who suffer from Alzheimer's disease. It is cruel. In my dad's case. It has taken him from a vital, active, well-loved citizen of his community to a man who cannot remember to do what he needs to care for himself. Many, like my dad, live in a community where he will receive the quality care that he deserves so that he can live out his remaining years with dignity. We, his family, love him and our mother. We are their number one advocates and will do anything to make sure the wonderful facility where they live continue to do their best. For our parents, we, on our part, do our best to educate ourselves on his disease for his sake and to be a listening presence for hers. However, unlike my dad, many in other communities have not received quality care. Here is a recent quote from our friend, Dr. Leo Igwe, director and founder of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and I quote,"family members abandon them and make them suffer painful and miserable deaths. Advocacy for Alleged Witches urges the public to stop these abuses and treat people with dementia with care and compassion," end quote. Sarah Jack says almost every week in the following segment, End Witch Hunts News, that education is key. Spreading the word regarding ongoing witch hunts is also key. Please listen again to Dr. Leo Igwe in the episode"Deadly Witch Hunts of the 21st century" and Damon Leff in the episode"Witch Hunting in Modern South Africa." Then share these episodes on your social media channels. Visit our website, endwitchhunts.org, to discover how you can help to save a life.
Sarah Jack:Thank you, Mary.
Josh Hutchinson:Here's Sarah with End Witch Hunts News.
Sarah Jack:End Witch Hunts, a nonprofit 501(c)(3), Weekly News Update. Advocacy for Alleged Witches has made a stand to help and rehabilitate elderly victims who have suffered from violent witchcraft accusation attacks in Nigeria. Last year, hearts were shattered when Pa Justin was unjustly accused of witchcraft and subjected to a horrific act of violence. He was set a blaze in his own village in Nigeria. This month, Advocacy for Alleged Witches took a crucial step by accompanying Pa Justin back to his village. The community members asked Pa Justin to return. Quote,"this is an exercise in social experimentation. AFAW will be closely monitoring the case of Pa Justin for some insights for future use," end quote, Dr. Leo Igwe. AFAW advocates have also initiated an outreach and sensitization campaign within the community. AFAW is teaching that the elderly deserve dignity and care. Elderly members of society should be revered, cherished, and cared for, not unjustly accused of causing harm with witchcraft. Witchcraft harm accusations are a deeply rooted problem, not only in many African communities, but in nations across the globe, leading to devastating consequences for innocent individuals like Pa Justin. Witchcraft and sorcery accusation violence advocacies represent many countries and have an unwavering commitment to End Witch Hunts. They are taking legal action, educating community members and leaders, rehabilitating victims, and addressing how victims and communities can move forward. Our organization, End Witch Hunts, also firmly believes that every individual and community can live free from fear and harm. We support advocacy organizations that are helping affected communities fight for justice against this gross violation of human rights through grassroots efforts. Please help spread awareness by talking to your circle of influence about modern witch hunt violence occurring across the globe. Please go to our show notes and see links to the advocacy groups that are actively working to stop the violence. Consider making a donation to AFAW, End Witch Hunts, or any of the advocacy groups listed in our show notes, and volunteer your voice to support their initiatives. Your conversations and donations are making a significant difference in the lives of those affected by witchcraft accusations. Engage with local leaders and community members to advocate for policies and practices that protect the rights and dignity of vulnerable individuals like the elderly, widows, and children. Report suspicious cases. If you come across any incidents of witchcraft harm accusations, report them to the appropriate authorities and organizations like AFAW. Together, we can put an end to this injustice. Let us stand together, not just for Pa Justin but for all those who have suffered and continue to suffer due to witchcraft accusations. Thank you for being a part of Thou Shalt Not Suffer podcast community. We appreciate your listening and support. Keep sharing our episodes with your friends. This podcast is a project of our nonprofit called End Witch Hunts. It is dedicated to global collaboration to end witch hunting in all forms. We collaborate and create projects that build awareness, education, exoneration, justice, memorialization, and research of the phenomenon of witch hunting behavior. Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts. org to learn about the projects. To support us, make a tax deductible donation, purchase books from our bookshop, or merch from our Zazzle shop. Have you considered supporting the production of the podcast by joining us as a Super Listener? Your Super Listener donation is tax deductible. Sign up today. Thank you for being a part of our work.
Josh Hutchinson:Thank you, Sarah.
Sarah Jack:You're welcome.
Josh Hutchinson:And thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial Podcast.
Sarah Jack:Join us again next week.
Josh Hutchinson:Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Sarah Jack:Find all of our episodes at thoushaltnotsuffer.com.
Josh Hutchinson:And remember to tell your friends about the show.
Sarah Jack:We appreciate your support to end witch hunts, visit endwitchhunts.org to learn more.
Josh Hutchinson:Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.